tv Charlie Rose PBS October 19, 2010 11:00pm-12:00am PST
>> rose: welcome to our program. tonight, general jack keane who recently returned from afghanistan on a mission for general petraeus gives us an assessment of what he s onthe ground. >> what you have in petraeus is a guy that has an enormous capacity level. and he has touched every aspect of this very quickly. he operates at the sategic level in terms o plomacy. operates at the operational level to understand the entire framework of the war and then he undersnds its tactical implatio. hean d that backnd foh, change manager times during the day. that's rare in a general officer. sendly. buffet by thesuccs he has hadn iraq, heomes in tre and he gets veryquicy pele's willing cooperation and earns respect fr the afghan
natial surity fces,he karzai govnmenitse, the ministerall have resct for him because of what he has accomplished he's able to use that and leverage that. >> rose: we continue with ingrid betancourt and her sry as a hostage of the rev ligs their armed forces of colombia in a colombian jungle. you tried to escape five times? >> a little more than that, b five times i managed to get out of the guards, t of the... and then ithe jungle. but the jungle was another prison. >> rose: and what would theydo when they captured you? >> they will punish me. >> rose: what does "punish" mean? >> it cabeany things. for... let's... well, there are ny things, i have those images coming back so 's difficul buet's say that the lt time
they captured me was chained to a tree for almost four days. >> rose: a new assessment of afghanistan and the story of a hostageinomolbia when we return. ybe you want sool kids to have more exposure to the arts. ybe you want sool kids maybe yowant to provide meals for the needy. or maybe youant hel when thenexpected happens. atever you want to do, mbers project om arican express can help you te the first step. vote, volunteer, or donate for the causes you believe in at membersojeccom. take charge of makingses a difference.n
captioning sponsored by rose communication fromur studios in neyork ci, th is charlie rose nepaper this evening we look at afghanistan, where it is at this moment and where it might be headed. some say the war effort has entered a new stage in rect weeks ashe intensity of u.s. and nato air strikes increases. top u.s. officials are voicing thr support for talks between the afghagovernment andhe taliban. u.s./pakisn meetings in washinon a taking place amid fresh tensions over pakistan's coopatio e "new york times" says itis th beginningf thend game, but end game whose end is unown. otheee thedistinctive fierprint of geral petraeus on all oft. ining me is jack keane, he was army vicchief of staff from 1999 to 2003. he was a leading proponent of thiraqi surge in kevin. he has just returned from afghanistan where he conducted an assessment for general
petraeus. i'm plsed to have jack keane back at this table. welcome. >> glad to be here, charlie. >> rose: tell me what it was like last month and where you think wee going >> well, i was generally encouraged. and the surge forces for afghanistan, the 30,000 plus, they are a decisive force because we're now able to put the troops in ma different areas at the same time along with afghan national army forces which have grown in size and also they are more than an acceptable force. that surprised me. i spent a lot of te with them and a lo of time with r commanders in terms ofheir assessment of that force and they're operating side by side th our fces. what's happening is those deciveorces-- both ahan d no, incilly u.s.-- are having an impt on the taliban and beginning to turn the momentum around to our favor. it is just at the beginning ages the evidence of at itheir morale. we've listened to their
conversations everyday. and we're picking updence of low male. nterrogate them evidence of lo male. seco thi tt's happening is there are a numberf th, ery ngle battalio commaer an brigadeommaer had evidence of taliban who re willing to reintegrate. that means angeside that's a big deal. so that is the beginning of a change in momentum which will build, in my judgment, in scale over time. and i think we'll definitely have some favorable statistical results in a few months. >> rose: you kw that goes against some of the impressions that are taking placeat this timehatt's not goi very well >> i know. >> rose: and you're here to say that that's not what you saw? >> that's not whati saw. >> rose: and you're notere sily bause you want to change public opinion in order to generate confidence in the possibilities of the future >> i'm not here for that. i'm here to report on what i saw. and i know that there's a voice of doom ound thissue. and it wasimilar in iraq, quite frankly.
i saw preliminary evidence like this early in 2007. some in february, as early as february, but clearly in m. and was not at wasbein repoed but it s ining a doteal, is what i'm talking about, but 's there. and i have confidence in what i see, i trust my judgment. i trust also the judgment of the commanders. >> rose: all right, it should be said about history that you in a sense were a kind of middle person giving back door interest to general petraeu tpresent bush. that was sothinyou wer par of, establishinthat retionip syou were viously very clo to general petraeus. what dide wt you tow do? at was the point ofyou being there? >> ather set of eyes. go out and take look at this thing. see what' happening. analyze it. what do we have to fix? what kind of problems are we having and i keep that between he and myself. but the fact of the matter is, the overall is an assessment and then get spific in terms of are the objectives right, are the goals right, are the
implementation of those goals and oectives rit? do we have the right fus. all of that. >> rose: are the goals right? >> yes. >> rose: what are they? >> stabilit in afghanistan that permits a government to work effectively over timewith some economic developme. stability is what we're after. >> re: tell me what stability means in this case. >> it means security is wtt truly means. you ha to get serity as a necessary pre-condition to make the political progress thatas toe ma, particularly athe lower lel, the province and districtevel. and also to make the kind of economic assistance that you wanto have. you can't get there until you get aecure situation that's relatively stable. we c get that, in my judgment. >> ros there are all kinds of ises tt you knowabou the corrtion of the karzai family and the karzai administration. can we he a relationshi th them can we depen on them can we expect them to be partrn this unterinsurgency?
>> corruption in the kzai government is al, make no miake about it. petraeus and the command totally understands that. they're putting mitigators in place to do tha he's got a task force that's stood up, headed by general mcmasters that focuses on corruption. they're going to account for every dollar over there, some of which has been going into people's pockets. that's going to stop. the most egregious levels of corruption, they're going to put a focus on in private, in front of president karzai but done in private to stop it the edatorynatu of the corruption, that feeds on the people on a daily basis, taxes, on the roads, inheir homes, we're going to get after that and trto stop most of that. so there will be an effort to do it. most of it's goingo be done in private without a lot of public rhetoric surrounding. >> rose: in other words, you're not going to beat up on karzai in public. >> you cant. you ed to have some kind of relationship with karzai to make sense. >> rose: and there's no alternative to karzai. >> he's the goverent and he'll be tre until 2014. that's the reality of it.
rose: there have also been reports that he wants to negotiate th the taliban. es hor es he n? and he does, it because he thinks that the possibility of ing anythg great than a negotiated settlement is impossible? >> i don't think any negotiated settlement at th timis rely possie. the taliban would want far too much. in other words... >> rose: they call it propagaa too. >> yeah. they would want thesouth. and karzai's not going give them the south and we ctainly wouldn be a party that. i mean, when we say give them the south, that means give them people, millions of people into their has agn under taliban rule, terror, intimidatio torture, assassination, every single day senth censurery talibanism out again in control of people's lives. the people do not want it. constent eve poll ten there, they do not want the taliban back in power. i don't know how we could possibly abandon those'm and give them back to them as part of some kind of negotiated deal. >> rose: so what's the
negotiated settlement to be made? >> i think... >> rose: tylay down their arms for what price? >> i think whatill happen in the final analysiss atwe're going to run these guys backn their hole again. that's what's happening. it's going to take some time, but we' gethere and then we'll have a negotiated settlement which will permit them to come into a political process to partipat inf th want to. ros have the rules of gagent changed since petraeus has been there? >>ot in aery substanve way. >> rose: you know general chrystal w very concerned about civilian casualties. >> as is petraeus, as all the former commanders arevery coerned about it. the... what was happening, thin as best i can reconstruct it, as the rul of engemt got downhe chainof command, peopleere king it more restrictive thanhat it should be. petraeus has looked at tha a think we he me sensle rules in pce. and we'ot t make ctain at people aren't cnging them and making them more restrictive because of that overall concern. >> rose: is there any difference
today between either the strategytor implementation between petraeus and mcchrysl? >> i don't think there's much separation when it comes to the overall strategy. what enough petraeus is a guy that has an ermou capacity level. and he has touched every aspect of this ver quickly he opatesthe sateg level in terms of diplomacy, operates at the operational level to underand the entire framework of the war and then he understands its taktd kl implications. he can d that backnd forth, changing many times during the day. that's rare in a general officer. secondly, buffetted by the second suss he has had in iraq, he comes in there and he get ve quicklypeople's willing cooperation and earns frpt the afghan nional security forces, the karzai gernment itself, e ministers all have respect
for him because of what he has accolished. he's able to use that and leverage that quite a bit. and the other thing is that, look,ased on whahe was able to do in iraq he's got is entire command totally focused andotally believing that we can dohis thing and we can win and that's not easy to do. >> rose: to win means bring them the table? to put them back on theireels so that the suffering casualties, they see no hope of winning themselves and so they want to make a deal. or give up. >> or give up, or give up. either one of those. gethe level of violence down and the security stable enough so afghan security forces can deal with emselves, much as we've done in iraq. >> rose: and what's the time frame to do that? >> i think by next summer we'l have definable progress that
everybody will see and dersnd. >> ros so thiss before july 2011. >> sure, i think we'll have the progress then. >> rose: so what about this winter review? what's going to take place in december? >> wl, i don't know. i'not nning it. i would suspect it will be a review and an interim report on where are we. >> rose: i assumehe president will say to general petraeus "okay, you've had the men, you've had a chance to execute, you'veet the psonalities, you' got your own me mum in for,show me where we de progressnd this is not tling good money after bad." >> right and ithinit will beust abt li that. i think the one next summer ll be considerably more in-depth. bu nonethele... rose: the presidentas prisedy 2011 hs going to ben toithdraw. >> i undstanthat >> re: doespetraeus understandhat? >> he ctainly understan that yes, he does. rose: what does he understand that to be? >> well, i don't want to speak for petraeus, that's not my purpose for being here. but the fact is what i understand is progress ne summer, summer review. if we're making progress and it
looks like we can get to a solution in afgnistan, i believe e numbers of troops that would leave afghanistan at that time would be inconsequential because the president will have a choice. he has for the first timeased on his decisive action to put those surge forces in there, they're getting ruts and it' gog to take more time to nish it, to be sure. you can't get it done in one year, that's the reality of it, but you can make definable prress in one year. and tt's his choice wther he wants to continue that or not. >> rose: in iraq you had the awakening. and we read reports thieek that that it's falling apart and people who were part of the awakening and wh listened to general petraeusnd moved awa from al qaeda are now moving back to al qaeda in ira >> we'll see h tha works. >> rose: do you beeve thas happening? >> i don't think it's happening to the degree that the reports are and i'm not receiving
reports on iraq myself from any of the commanders nor am i trying to dcover any. but my judgment is thi is tt isecause of e instabity of theolitical situation and the uncertainty the sunnis have that they will have a political future. think once we clean this presidential situation up in terms of who's going to run iraq i believe in my own judgment that that movement will die once they're back in the political process that they believe they ve a voice >> rose: at? th awakening movement or the... >> the awakening. >> rose: because they'll be part of the process, that i'll be back in the government and sunnis and shi'a will be cooperating in a y there that there's not necessarily to be an opposition. >> right, and usi arm violence to achieve your goals. now, the question in afghanistan is a solid one. there's evence that there that that movement exis. now what petraeus and the command are doing right now they're forming em into what isermed afghan lal police.
so what does that mean? thateans you come over, you're ing to get a pcheck, a nonal payche to be sure. >> rose: b certainly asmuch as y wergetting fr the taliba >> i don'tnow e answer to that >> rose: well, thas the minimuyou would have to do, wouldn't it? >> i wouldmagine so but i don't know it. d secondly you're going to b pa of somethg called afghan lol police which means you still carry a g, everybody doesnyway, and you're going to be loosely described as a policeman for some time. similar to what was referred to iraas the son of iraq. now what do we get for that? we do a retina scan on every one of these guys. fingerprints ande have a dossier on them as to who they are, who their lleagues and associates are, who their families are and the rest of it. so tt's beginning to happen. that's a good thing. >> rose: he believ that has possibilitys? >> it's got huge possibilities. it can be a game changer in afghanistan as it was in iraq. >> rose: okay. here's what you've said to me.
i'm encouraged by what i see on the ground in afghanistan. i ink petraeus is makg some progress, it's not overnight but the afghans are doing better than i expected. i believe that there's room for... and i think the taliban may be recognizing that things are not going as well as they hopeit might b there'aewsheriff in town and so may have some negotiations and we'll see what happens. on the other hand, everybo in e wod knows that it is a very difficult challenge if you can have ople having asafe haven in pakistan. an especially difficult if you believe that somehow the pakistani government o its intelligence service mayot b tally supptive of you and may have some sympathforhe taban. >> the major impediment for our success in ahanistan in my view a tsetwo sanctuaries, e that's aroun the afghan/pakistan boer which is essentially the haqqani network,
which is a crime syndicate is the way your viewing audience should look at it. they have no ideology to take back or to assume control of afghanistan. they a smugglers, drug users, criminals, itself. but very powerful and very resolute, aided and abetted directly by the intelgence service from pakistan that has to be known by the leaders o pakistan as well. there's another sanctuary to the south in a place referred to as quetta shura. those are afghans who have an ideology, taliban nure, return to polital per in afghanistan. if we permit bot of those sanctuys tcontinue as rost as they are with the capacity to refresh the troops, change out the leaders, it will be a maj imdiment for r succs in afghanistan. i don't see how we can get there if w permit tho sanctuarys remain. either the paktanihave to
take them down and stop supporting them or we have to take them down. one or the other has to happen. >> rose: okay. so general kin yanni the chief of staff of th army, what's his attitude? i mean, he's auy i assume david petraeus spends a fair amount of me talking to. he has spoke t hi tt's for sure. >> rose: certainly the chairman of the joint chiefs... >> as had our chairman and secrary gates and other officials, secretary clinton, et cetera. >> rose: what does he say when you tell him "you've got to do something about the haqqani network an you've got shut down these havens or else all is lost or can never be achieved in afghanistan"? >> i don't know what he says. i'm not there. >> rose: i kno that. >> i don't know. >> rose: why wouldn't you ask petraeus that? >> what i do know is this. nothing has changed, charlie. nothing has changed. those sanctuarys are in plac thoreau bust in nature, and
every day out of those sanctuaries come forc tt are kiing our foes and maiming our soldiers and interfering with nato's effort at large that's the absolute facts of it. some of them are actually... receive training from pakistan forces. and a lot of the forces in the nortthat wre fightingare not stafgh. they're also pastan whi... pakistan hqani members, ich surprid men terms of... >> rose: well haqqanis all pakistani. >> 7 of two of t brigade coanders forces that they' fighting are actually pakistan as opped to afghan, which i found remarkable. >> rose: so what is petraeus's strategy to do something about this? i mean, first of all there are more predatorttacks. >> uh-huh. >> rose: bob woodward ss they're a unit of about 3,000 c.i.a. peopl that are making cross-border attacks. i know you've read woodward's
book. >> i saw it. i saw what he claims. i don't know what... anything about the force. and that's the truth. i don't know athing about it. you know, that's classified and mparentalized and even a guy like me just there trying to assist petraeus-- you may find it hard to believe-- but they're not going to give me all that kind of information. i don't need to know so there's no reason for me to know it. that's a fact. >> rose: are you telling me you didn't ask? i dnot. i do not. none of that surprises me that there's a paramilitary force out there. i would assume the c.i.a. is ing at. i woul assume they would be dog that. that's not something i have to ask. that's what they should be doing. >> rose: and what they're doing is invadg the sovereigntyf pakistan to go aer som of the. >> i'm sure they're trying to get after these bad guys. now i think what the command would want to do is be able to use some of these predator attacks, drone attacks for your viewg audience ainst e haqqi network. maybe considerably larger proportions now than we have in the past, which is very minimal to help kethose down.
t at some point... >> rose: can drone attacks take them down? >>o, that's what i was getting to at some point you can't do at by itself. either pistan has to helps to shut this thing down... >> rose: or give us permission. >> or give us permission to deal with it. at some point in my view you have to deal with it from the air but also from the ground. >> rose: so what will convince the pakistanis to do it? is it more aid? is it something else? >> i think it fundamentally if we... you know what the issue is here. they are hedging because they believe that wre going to leave and they're going to have to deal with the taliban and they want them as a bfer between emselves and the indians and that's the reality of it. >> rose: they also believe the indians are trying to establish presce in afghanistan so they'll be at an advantage. >> that's right. and they believe that they have evidence that the indians are up to real mischief in afanistan. so tt's the paranoia and the insecurity that's driving the policy. the fact is this, though: when wetart to make defable progress, i think we can tell
the pakistanis pretty clearly with the finger in their chests look, you're notoing to get whatou wanthere. we're turning the tables here. and the fact of the matter is thiss going to have a favoble tcom to us and this host country, you better make up your mind what sidyou want to be onere because we are not ing let f this. and think that's the reality that's going to dawn on them. one of t this i niced in iraq whichseem to be an tractable tuatn, a hopeless situatio, wn we we ab to regain theomentumn ousidewhichappsn military counteroffensi which is this is. normdy was one, the campaign in pacific was another. so when you start too that, you start to gain momentum. a lot of things that appear almost impossible start to fall in place becauseyou' breaking your opponents' will psychologically, things start to change. and that's the reatyof it. ll that have profound political impact on the
pakistanis? it remains to be seen. but i do believe it's going to give us levere that we curreny doot have. >> ros oka but you believe you can make the case on the ground in washington in islamabad that the united states is making progress on the grnd with their afghan parters in sthat the tide of this war is beginning to chae and we're here to see it through and you bett get on th right sid >> yeah. >> rose: and you better stop protecting people who are doing harm to ourgoal. >> right. i don't think wean me that case rightow with all the facts. what i'mgiving you is anecdotal evidence thawe 'reoving in the right direction. i think you can ma a lid case next spri/summer. >> rosha tnk y coring. jean jackeane, back in a mome. st witus.
>> rose: on the next charlie rose, nancy pelosirom the house of representatives looking ahead to the midterm elections on november 2. join us. >> rose: ingrid betancourt is here. in 2002 while campaigning for president of colombia, she was kidnapped boy the revolutionary armed forc oolombia known as f.a.r.c.. the u.s. state department and the e.u. classify it as a terrorist group. he she has now written a memoir about her grueling experience called "even silence has an end: my six years of captivity in the lombian jungle." it details the torture and fear and humiliation and hunger and illness and bore? and psychologal sfering of the hostage. the french newspaper called it "an extraordinary adventure story." i'm pleased to hav ingrid betancourt at th table for the first time. welcome. >> thank you for having me. >> rose: and congratulations on this. take ubacko the moment o capture. >> okay, it was a saturday. i ke up ver earlyin the morng.
i had to take a plane to a place in the south of colombia and from there iad too by roa tonotherown which was very known because it was where th gornme was holding his peace talks with the f.a.r.c., with the gorilla. but two days before my trip, the peace talks ended abruptly. there was a crisi anthe president of colombia at the time said that in 48 hours they would gain back the control of the zone where the gorilla had constructed their headquarters. so for the campaign it was important just see if we were going to just go forward in our plans and i received a phone call from th mayor of san vicente, whi was president of
our party saying "please don't cancel, it's important for you to come because we need protection, we arevery scared, theopulion is scared that the paralitaes cld come and take revenge because of the presence of the guerrilla and we would like you to come." so i landed in florence ya in the morning and the airportas completely militarized. and when i decided i w going to go by the road with t plan we had coith with motorcycs in the fnt a armored car,ll the secity my bodyguards received call from bogota sing they we rbfoidden to come wit me. and that for me was, of course i mean, i had to just figure out what to do. >> rose: but your instinct was "maybe i shouldn't go."
>> well, i took a timeo ponder what to do because while i knew that... what i knew at the time was that the zone was under military control. so safe. and for me the problem was if i don't go whatwill happen? and i could, of course, understand that the order they have received from the high government was a political order. they didn't wa me to get to san vicente at the same time the president of colombia was going to bin san vicen because i was of the opposition at the time. and i said to myself, if i d't go the government will end up controlling my campaign. every time they will want to prevent me from going somewhere, they'll just do the same. they'll withaw my secuty. >> rose: and what happened? >> so i went. and i took the road. is i croed military checkpointnd, like everybody to the normalraffic, everybody was going on that at road. i had ken the road many times
so what i saw was normal. u know, cars. and we came to the poi where therwas a deviation, we took it, ere s a probably with a each that was... had infrastrturerobls. and whenwe g to the other side of the stream, i sought military armed guys. and immediately i had the reflex of looking at the boots because they had told me if the army has leather boots, but the gorilla has rubber boots. >>ose: becau they're in the jungle. >> yes. so if you want to know who you're facing, you have to look at the boots. and those were rubber boots. so when i realed that was the guerrilla, i knew we were in trouble. >> rose: s years o trouble. >> six years of trouble. >> rose: you have said that this book is about evil and that it's
made you better understand some of t horrible things that have ken policen history. >> o yes. ye i tnkhat this bookis, of cose, of evi but of good, too. and i think it's a journey to the jungle and into the abduction tuation but i think ove l it's a journey into ourselves. into myself. and i hopethat when people will read the book, they will find also that it's like amirr that helps you k questions and... >> rose: what questions >> what is the things th are important in our lives. hodo we spend time? are we spending our time with the priorities of our hrt or are we leaving the very important things of our heart the last because we have urgent things to address? and then weee our life in
another perspective. the very important things, we don't give them the time we should. that's one question. our relationship with time. the second question is the relationshipe have with ourselves. how much time do we spend trying to address the difficulties we have in ourselves. and i mean like character flaws. all have them. and we always think that we have to cope with that, weere born like that, wecannot change it and if people want to work with usr want to live wh us, they ha to cope with us. well n we shouldn't have tt way of thiing cause t trh is that wick change and we can change not only the way we react, not on the way we act bualso the way we feel and the emotio we allowed oselves to have. and course it's a process. it's like en y're in g doing absnditis hard dou
don't see the sultsre and after a nth you sethe results, that kinof thing. >> re: wt are you most proud of in terms of yourself? >> okay. i should answer the opposite question first. what are you ashamed of? >>. >> rose: well, i was going to come far but i thought i'd start this way, you c tak either one first. what are you most ashamed of? >> well, i think what was difficult for me to assume was the moment in this abduction where i thought i hadn't acted in a proper way and i could feel ashamed about it. for example we wer in tshi prison, bashed wires, very small space, ten peoe packedpeople that i didn't ow a we were forced to live together. i mean,ithout a kin of privacorinticy.
we were just one on top of the other. and we're in the hands o the guerrillwho feeding us with all kinds of nasty information, es, toust put us to fight. and en they have this very crueway of handlg ings which isike to sepate into the groups there are some that they will favor and the other people that tt just won't take care o so you will havepeople inside of the camp that would have access to drugs, to medicine, and we all were sk for something or that we'd have better food or that we'd hav.. things that would make the others feel bad and, of course, jealous and, of course, needing the same. >> rose: s the purpose of all this is to put hoages in conflict with each other? >> yes, because i think th the f.a.c. needed to divide us to be sure that we wouldn't come up
with a plan to flee unitdly all togeth or toust, you know, confront them and they did that... it was their strategy. they did it all the time. >> rose: and which group were you in? we you in th favored groupor not favored group? >> wl, i would shift because they would shift also. >> rose: they're playing with your head. >> yes. metis i would, for example, i wouldn't get medicine. and i was very concerned about medicine because i d compions that i lovhat were in problems... >> rose: diabetes with no insulin. >> diabetes, heart attack, nothg. and weouldeethat others would have the micine. so, of course, the reaction you ve is to just bitter an not fe go because you feel th you're not having t oper treatment or at least the same treatment as others. but when it came to the point where i wod be treated better
because i would have i remember once the commanders sent a cake and it was my daughter's birthdayand ihave ted to make things different because i want to mark the day. but i didn't expect tm send a cake for my daughter's birthday. so i w feeling very happy. and when i turned around i was ale beuse nobody was happy with my happiness. they all had the same reaction i would have if it hadn't been m so after that we shared the cake and i remember one of my companions had his daughte hang the birthday at the same time as mine. like two day apart. so when wer all together, i just said okay, this is in honor of our two children.
>> rose: when yore in captivity like this, do you surprise yourself about how much pain you canive with? >> y, because it's a conant pain that is different. >> rose: mental and physical. >> yeah. and it switches. sometimes it's the moral pain, sotimes it's the phyca pai sometis it's thetress, especially when you're trying to escape. yohave this.. lots of adrenaline and you have to control your emotions because you' goi to do something that will cost you a lot if you fail. so those kinds of thingsre difficult. >> rose: and how is it that different hostages saw that experience sdifferently? you ow, the three amicans who wrote a book. and they look at you in a certain way. and someone elserites a book and talks about you with great admiration. is it like feeling the different des of elephant or is it simply people are motivated by different reasons? i thinkt's mythings at the same time.
i think that first you have in human society wherever you are you have emisy with som and nochemtry wit others and that in the jgle applies, too. sotimeyou ve problem wit so pern th haves i a way that just confronts you character and then you have tha you ve, like, somebod that doesn't li you and that is aggressive to you and you react aggressively and this is very human. that happens, too. and you have oths that le you because, again, theay you behave, the wa theyehave, you just get along and you me this inedible fridship. >>ose: were you closerto n or women or did itmatt by nder? >> i think i was closer to men. >> rose: you were? >> yeah, i think that women.. well, i had three women with me in the two first years of abduction. afterwards i had only men. but i would say at with
women... with one, at least, i was doing a year and a hal long and it was very complicated. we had been working together before abduction. we ended up in the situation, we didn't want to be together. we didn't want to be abducted. we had to share a vy small pace. wherer i would move she would be annoyed. if she would ugh and wake me upt night, i would be annoyed, sharing that small space, sharing the pressure, the tension. it became difficult, t living together becamvery paful. ani waed to escape. that was my obsession, and she wanted just.. >> rose: tough it out. rest. >> yes. >> rose: you tried to escape five times? >> a little me than that but fiveimes i manad toet out of the guards, out of the there and then in the jungle.
the jgle s another pron. >> ros and what uld they do when they captured you. >> they would punish. >> rose: what does "punish" mean? >> oh, it can be many things. for... well, there are many things. i have those images coming back so it's difficult. but let's say that the last time they captured me i was chained to a tree for almost four days. >> rose: four days. >> fr years. >> rose: four years? >> four years. >> rose: chained to a te. >> 24 hours a day. >> rose: that was a punishment for trying to escape the fifth time? >> yeah. >> rose:r the fifthtime they captured you. >> yes. >> rose: howidyou survive that? what's the mi fix tt makes yonot go crazy.
>> >> there are many things. i think love is the key because i had love of my past. my parts, my chiren, my fe that i hadeforend ielt th i was lod and you need to feelhat you're loved toe able toconfront hred. >> re: the hatred the f.a.r.c.tor hatred of... >> of the f.a.r.c. of t f.a.r.c >> rose: y now s the with e benefit of hindsight, as what? as a criminal element of a drug cartel? >> i draw a line between the organization and the people. the organization is a criminal organization. they advertise themselves as a communist guerrilla. an organization... they aredrug trafficers organizinged in a military way. foryou prefer it, a litary
organiti for drug trafficking. but the people that are there, i would say there are two kinds. the ones that come to be commanders-- a these are people that have survived the war because normally you get killed very yng whe youe in thf.a.c. an the ha become very cynical and they are... they have the sa as the drug trafficke theyill. they a greedy, they want privileges, and they use people. the oneshat are in th troop, the adolescents that come to be errillas, th are kid with no opportunityn le. the only thing that they had s...r being a asan growing coca o in the case the girls... >> rose: was there ainehey wouldn't crossven? was there sexual abuse?
>> there were all kinds of things. andtween them, the... i mean being a woman in the guerrillas it's very hard. because those girls are really subject to all kinds of abuse. always disised in, you know, forms. but, for example, if... well, they tell them that they are... they have the same treatment as men. there is equality of gender, let's say. that's how they advertise themselves. but once the girls are there, of course, they work as men. they will chop trees as men, they will carry logs as men, they will construct bridges or dams or whatever they have to constrt like a man. but at night it's ffert and they have this rule in the f.a.r.c. that two times a week you can ask fo the guys, they
n ask to slee with one of their companions. anthe girl can say no one time two times, t t third te she will be poied out like not having the proper reaction because she's expected to have what theyalled revolutionary sodari whi is to help the guys to be concentrated in their work and so to sleep with them at night to just be able to free them from their needs. so it's difficult forhem to cope with that. and, well, they try to find a companion to settle, to not be enabled or forced to just be with one or the other. so once they have, like, a stable compaon and let's say that the girl will fall in love, because it happens and perhaps you will, you know, get pregnant it's the commander who can authorize if she can have the child or not. normally they ll abort.
and if they don't that child does not belong to the couple, belongs to the.a.r.c.. so themoer will breast-feed the baby for three months and then the baby will beakeno a place, civilians working with the f.a.r.c. that will, you know... well, have th child til n, 11, 12 years old and then he will become a fwerl la. >> rose:id you think you would be rescued? >> it was my dream. i dreamed ofeiescued for six years. especially when i was chained and it w mor difficult to try to imane a way of eapin but i never, never imagined that i would be rescued in the way i was. that military operation was the most fantastic one. it was really an incredible hero mission.
>> rose: as you know, there was a suit that you brought after the... later, fo $ mlion against the colombian government for what you had gone through and whatever other reans there were in part of the suit. i'm not sure where are that is today because the objectionby some was to say in colombian government went to great risks to rescue you wrchblt is that issue day? >> well, i thinkt's a disttion of reality. didn't sue the government. there is a law in colombia tt protectsheicti of terrorism and you are eitled to ask for compensation. some of my fellow hostages did that and nobody reacted. but when i presentedly claims it waa bi scandal. and the government just prevted theacts af ias tackg in court theoldiers that had rescued me and i want to tell you that that's... i me, horrible.
it ju... i mean, it wa a big lie. and ople rerey acted to that big lie. they said, oh, ingrid wants to make money off her abduction. she's asking for millions of dollars. i'm going to tell you something, that was what the lawyersame up with. >> rose: the $6.8 million. >> whatever. they have a frame, that's the law in colombia, that's howhey sum up the things. but they could give me a hundred times more. i won't get back to the jungle for that money and that money would never, ever bring me back the years i love. my fher, my children. >> rose: your father died, what, a month after youere captured? >> yes. so this whole issue... i mean, it hurt me a lot. and my family. i'm very aware that there are
political interes to just, you know... it was a public... this is what it was. and they distorted the facts and they lieto the people and i... for me it has been a nightmare because i just fee that it's nofair. i feel that it's not just. i'm also feeling that colombia sick. i an, you nnot treat a victim like a criminal. i didn't do anything bad. >> rose: so where does it stand today? >> well, i just withdrew everything, the claim, everything, because i didt want thi to... you know, after having being victim of the fenway park, i don't want to be victim of the hatred of my countrymen. i just... no problem. >> rose: andthe rationships
that... among those that were rescued? >> they're my family. they're my family. i mean, i lived with them more than i he lid with my children or my parents. so i spoke with them a lot on the daily basis with many of them, not all of them. but for example my three fellow hostages, the americans, wel with o i don't speak at all buthe otherwo are my friends. >> rose: keith is the one you don't speak to. >> no, no, because i thi he... he needsto just... he his wounds. and i know it's difficult and... >> re: why is he angryt you? >> i think there are many things: ihink he was... it w difficult for himo jus.. escially in eungle, y know? we were in ts situation where ever time they woul speak
about the hostagesin colombia my name would pop up. and he just hated it. he always was. he always would tell me who do you think you are? you think you're better than we are because you're in the news? or he would turn the radio off. i mean, for him it was difficult to understand that i ha n part that. i didn want to be a celebrity in the jungle you know? i didn't want that. i uldn't help it. and i thinkfor him it was difficult because by not being by his name being ignored perhaps he felt his pain wasn't recognized. i think we were all of us denied of our entity and in a way not beg recognized as the hostage, a viim, affecdm a lot. >> rose: what did you leave in the jungle? >> many things. many, many things.
an especially i left all what i didn't want to bring bk, which is bitterness, hatred, reven. rose: you have no bitterness today. no. >> rose:ixyears? tied to a te for newshour ars. noitterness? >> no, bause i think... you see, it's a very rational thing. i think that bitterness or hatred, it's the same. it's a prison. it's another chain. once i was freed in that helicopt ianted to be really free. a free woman. >> rose: so what's the future? >> well the future for me right now is to find a place to live. because i have been living these two years since libation between my two children.
>> rose: you first went to paris? >> yes, i went to paris and then i came here in the united states and i have bniving between th two countries forhese two years. >> rose: you also... you cod on the radio hear your mother. >> yes. >> rose: but your husband you didn't hear from and you would hear him referred to i news accounts as ur foer husband. >>es. th was very hard. i don't blame him. becae i think he was a you ma handsome, ande didn't knowf i was ali and he made his life. so thas oy. i mean, you know. >> rose: then you remarried. >> i don't know if he has remarried. >> rose: you don't know? >> no. but i know he's living with somebody and that's fine for me.
>> rose: so in your head you are ere today? >> in my head? >> rose: and in your heart. >> okay. in my head i'm starting a new chapter of my life. you know, the book wasery important. becausit gave me perspecti. i mean, once i was recalling everything and getting back to that jungle and writing about it. it was an emotional exercise. very hard. i mean, it was exhausting but at the same time it gave me the possibility of rethinkinnd tang rspective a assuming, i think assuming, whatappened. were tking about the sme. there were things that were shameful. for example,ou know, tryin to get more food or trying tvice president a better space.
we all did those kind of things and, of course, we could just reduce what we lived to the thgs we didn't do right. but there are other things that were amazing. and i wantedhis book also to be a testimony of the heroism i saw in my companions. the way they would crifice themselves for others. the way they could be so nero and so... i mean, i think with that we all have in us a dark side and a very bright side. i just wanted to focus on the very bright side >> rose: will you go back to colombia to run for polical office? >> well, that's a big queion. no. i'm not ready for that. i don't know if in the future i could change my mind but for now